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OTTAWA, Wednesday, October 26, 2016

The Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade met this day at 4:15 p.m. to study recent political and economic developments in Argentina in the context of their potential impact on regional and global dynamics, including on Canadian policy and interests, and other related matters.

Senator Percy E. Downe (Deputy Chair) in the chair.

[English]

The Deputy Chair: Today we are following up on concerns we heard during our study on Argentina. The Argentinean government has changed recently. After a period of instability in their history, they seem to have a new corporate governance model with the current government, and they are looking for investors. We are exploring opportunities for Canadians.

One of the current and long-time investors in Argentina is the Canadian mining industry. We heard positive comments when we were there, but we also heard some concerns, particularly about Barrick Gold mining company. We have requested their presence to answer some of the questions, but we have not had a positive answer back from them at this point.

However, I'm pleased to announce that today we have Mr. Pierre Gratton, President and CEO of the Mining Association of Canada here. I understand you have brief opening remarks. Please proceed.

Pierre Gratton, President and CEO, Mining Association of Canada: Thank you, chair, senators, clerk and others for this opportunity to present to you today. I am Pierre Gratton, President of the Mining Association of Canada, the national voice for the Canadian mining and mineral processing industry. We represent some 39 members engaged in exploration, mining, smelting and semi-fabrication across the country.

To be a member of the Mining Association of Canada, a company must subscribe to Towards Sustainable Mining, which is an increasingly globally recognized initiative that includes mandatory public reporting and independent assurance of social and environmental performance of their operations in Canada, addressing issues such as Aboriginal and community engagement, biodiversity, conservation, energy and GHG management. It also includes multi-interest oversight through a national advisory panel that is independent of MAC.

I'm pleased to have the opportunity to speak to you today about Canada's relationship with Argentina in the world of mining. I'll focus my remarks on two areas: First, the recent political and policy developments in Argentina, which have caught the eye of the Canadian mining sector, and second, the commitment that the Argentinean mining industry has made to adopt Towards Sustainable Mining, or TSM, which is actually a very recent development. I don't know if it was coincidental, but your invitation last week was the same week that we signed an agreement with our Argentinean counterparts to implement TSM.

I would like to preface my remarks by saying I am not an expert on Argentina. We represent our Canadian members here. We do engage with other countries and certainly have an interest in Latin America. If I'm not able to answer some of the specific questions you may have, I can commit to consulting with our membership with interest there and follow up with this committee.

Argentina has long been recognized as having the mineral potential to become a mining powerhouse. Evidence can be traced to the early 1990s when a combination of new constructive mining policies and strong geological potential attracted a significant international interest, including from a number of Canadian mining companies.

Indication from the government at the time of openness to foreign direct investment was found in the 1993 conclusion of a foreign investment protection agreement between Canada and Argentina, further bolstering the confidence of the Canadian industry to pursue opportunities there. Developments and policies reflecting this attitude toward international investment enhanced Argentina as a destination throughout the 1990s.

Record debt to default in 2001 and persistent inflation and volatile exchange rate fluctuations served as a warning to investors, but gold mining investment remains strong and continued over the course of the super cycle of the past decade.

In 2011, during her second term, then Argentinean President Cristina Fernández de Kirchner hiked export taxes and enacted currency restrictions that hurt foreign companies and deterred investment. Argentina slowly became a country that was increasingly unattractive and was seen as increasingly risky.

The 2012 expropriation of 51 per cent of the country's largest oil producer, YPF, Yaciemientos Petrolíferos Fiscales, fuelled further fears of nationalization and brought reminders of the challenging chapters of Argentina's history.

Our roots as an industry in Argentina precede this period and the aforementioned policy changes, so our interest in Argentina today remains strong. At $13.2 billion in 2014, Argentina is actually the third most important country in terms of concentration of Canadian mining assets by value in Latin America, after Mexico and Chile. Latin America itself is the most important jurisdiction for Canada in the world.

There are some 46 mining companies active in Argentina, the fourth largest of concentration of Canadian mining companies in South America. They include companies such as Goldcorp, Barrick Gold, Pan American Silver and Yamana Gold. Together they have invested some $3.2 billion on domestic projects in 2014-2015, of which 93 per cent was spent within Argentina itself.

I raise this because there is often a question, particularly coming from the developing world, about how much of foreign direct investment benefits countries locally. We have done a series of studies that looks at that very question. It can vary depending on the capacity of countries to provide supplies and services to the domestic industry. At 93 per cent, Argentina would find itself in the upper quartile of those that are able to benefit from the mining sector. Other countries can be at much lower levels than that.

The election of President Mauricio Macri in November 2015 was strongly welcomed. Since taking office, he undertook to reverse the damage of the previous administration, undoing currency restrictions, lifting export taxes and bringing more consistency to mining rules across Argentina's provinces. Argentina does boast one of the most attractive mining frameworks in the world. The new government, unlike its predecessor, appears committed to respecting it.

These developments are attracting positive attention, though it is still early days. Argentina has the potential to lead the Andean region in a number of mineral and metal products such as lead, zinc, tin, copper, iron ore, gold, et cetera.

While these developments are welcome, domestic political challenges remain and cannot be underestimated. There is rising dissent over increasing living costs. There is a minority in both houses of Congress, and there is anti-mining sentiment in many provinces. This certainly has been aggravated by the two cyanide spills at Barrick Gold's Veladero project.

Recognizing these challenges, the Argentinean mining industry, with the strong leadership of Canadian companies, came to MAC to seek assistance to help address reputational concerns. I was just in Argentina last week when we concluded a licensing agreement with the chamber of mines on Towards Sustainable Mining. Argentina has become the third country after ourselves and Finland to adopt this program. This is especially exciting because it is the first country in Latin America to take this step.

The industry in Argentina has increasingly been coming under pressure to respond to concerns raised by civil society and local communities, aggravated, as I said, by Barrick's second cyanide spill. In response to this, the adoption of TSM, as we call it for short, is viewed as an action that could be taken quickly to help begin to rebuild confidence and trust. This decision was helped by the fact that there are close ties between the industry and Argentina and Finland, and TSM was seen as more credible because it was in place in both Canada and Finland. I should emphasize the strong support we got from Goldcorp in particular, but also from Barrick.

I shared copies with you in advance of the news release announcing this agreement, and also a copy of a document called the "TSM Primer,'' which explains how this program works in practice and what it entails. We do see this agreement as a very significant step forward for Towards Sustainable Mining. It is an opportunity for Canada to bring its leading practices in environmental and social performance to other countries.

Just before this meeting, I had a follow up e-mail from my counterpart at the Argentinean chamber about next steps. They will be sending someone here to Canada to spend a week with us to learn how we have implemented this program over the last 12 years. We are planning as well to go back in December to offer our first training workshop. We expect this kind of cooperation to continue in the coming years.

With that, I'll stop and I'm happy to answer your questions. Thank you.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you very much for that presentation. Not only was it very informative, but certainly up to date, as current as your most recent e-mail. We appreciate that overview.

Senator Eaton: Thank you, Mr. Gratton. I'm reading this news release, your Cámara Argentina de Empresarios Mineros. How far do they have to come in terms of labour standards and sustainability? Is it a road that is ten miles long? Say the end product is 10 and you're perfect at 10. Are they at two or five or seven?

Mr. Gratton: As I understand it, the Argentinean legal framework is comparable to our own. It's not a question of whether they have the right legal framework in place; it's a question of the extent to which they implement it effectively.

Senator Eaton: So their labour standards are a complement to our own?

Mr. Gratton: Yes. That's my understanding. I don't think there is a great disparity.

In terms of the Canadian industry, we implement abroad the standards we adhere to here in Canada. What is significant about the adoption of Towards Sustainable Mining is it provides us with a way of actually proving that we do and not just saying so.

Goldcorp currently holds the presidency of the chamber of mines of Argentina, so they have really been in the leadership role driving this decision, although it has had the full support of its other members. Their message was to be credible. We can't just say we adhere to the highest standards; we have to show that we do. TSM is the way to do that.

Senator Eaton: That hasn't always been the case, has it, with Canadian mines?

Mr. Gratton: Well, you have to consider a number of factors. Some jurisdictions where the industry operates are very challenging jurisdictions to begin with. I wouldn't consider Argentina to be among them. You can have high levels of income disparities, high levels of violence, low respect for the rule of law, but you have a very attractive deposit and you want to try to make a go of it. Industry can go in with the best intentions, and the best systems and practices, and still find itself running into trouble.

Overall, when I visit Latin America, I consistently hear that Canadians, before all others, are the most welcome. Canada is seen as bringing superior practices to those countries, and we are seen as leaders in this area.

Just recently as well, you may have read about the horrible tailings dam failure in Brazil. That was a joint venture owned by Vale and BHP, Brazilian and Australian companies. It killed 19 people and there was huge ecological damage. Our equivalent in Brazil came to MAC to take our tailings management standards and translate them into Portuguese because they knew that it was here in Canada that we had the very best in tailings management.

There are some 6,000 Canadian companies on the Toronto Stock Exchange. We represent 39 of them. I can't vouch for every single one of them, but I think overall the Canadian industry has a reputation for being leaders in this area.

Senator Oh: Thank you, Mr. Gratton, for being here.

The mining sector is an important part of trade between Canada and Argentina. What are the prospects for Canada's mining business in Argentina under its economic and political turbulence? Which constraints are most problematic for Canadian mining businesses in the Argentina market?

Mr. Gratton: As I mentioned before, I won't pretend to be an expert in Argentina, but since I'm just back from there, I can share some of the perspectives that I heard about some of the challenges faced.

Theirs is a federal system, like ours, so they have our challenges with two levels of government. Under the previous government, as was described to me, the relationship between the federal and provincial governments was very fractious, and on mining policy that fractiousness was evident as well. It was very challenging for the industry to try to navigate that kind of situation where the two levels of government were not cooperating.

There is a greater degree of inconsistency than we would find here in Canada in terms of the application of provincial mining law. You can go to Ontario, B.C. and Quebec; they are all different statutes, but they are roughly equivalent and easy to understand. It's not a challenge for the industry here in Canada, but in Argentina it can be.

Provincial governments have also implemented a policy where they press for a percentage of the foreign direct investment interest in the country. Whereas Chile, for example, has established a very large and successful state-owned corporation — what we would call a Crown corporation, Codelco — Argentina doesn't have its equivalent, but they each try to take a little bit of the private investment that is there. That can be challenging as well, just dealing with those types of pressures for the industry, again because it isn't consistent in terms of the approach that they may take.

Those are the sorts of things I heard, but there is also optimism that the new government's approach is thus far more collegial in nature. They are engaging with the provincial governments and trying to bring a more consistent approach to governance in the country. That's also what I heard. It's also early days. Certainly the tone has been improved, so the industry is, as I said before, cautiously optimistic that things are going to get better and more attractive for Canadian investment there.

Senator Oh: Is the present government pro-Canadian investment in Argentina?

Mr. Gratton: Yes. They have already been to visit Canada. I met with the minister of mining a few weeks ago. At that time, we had already received the signal of the chamber's interest in Towards Sustainable Mining, so the government wanted to learn about this. They were also pleased to hear that this was likely to go ahead, as it has.

What I understood from that visit is that they, too, want to build their mining industry in a responsible way. They came to the country that was best known for doing it responsibly, and that was Canada.

Senator Cordy: Thank you very much for being here. Your comments were succinct and very helpful, and that is much appreciated.

As you know, the committee travelled to Argentina not too long ago, and like you, we met with the delegation when they came to Canada for a visit. It certainly seems to be a good time for Canada-Argentina cooperation.

One of the things I was struck by when I was there was the positive feeling of the business people and government people with their new president and their new government in place. They certainly seemed to be open for business. I thought that came across very clearly.

We did hear fairly often about the cyanide spills at Barrick Gold. Having said that, they were still interested in increasing Canadian mining in their country, so I give you kudos for the Towards Sustainable Mining initiative — that was Canada's initiative — and that Argentina has adopted it.

How did you go about getting this initiative adopted? Was it your meeting, for example, with the minister of mining? Was it with the mining companies? How does one go about doing this? Because it seems like it's a significant step.

Mr. Gratton: Yes. Thank you for that question.

Over the last few years, we have had significant support, frankly, from Canada's Trade Commissioner Service, sharing what we have developed here with other countries, in addition to our own efforts. I have to say the Trade Commissioner Service has been quite helpful in raising awareness. Through that, we have had requests from chambers of mines from many countries, and from governments of other countries, to learn more about what Towards Sustainable Mining is all about.

In the case of Finland, which concluded an agreement with us last November, they actually approached us four years ago as they were beginning a lengthy multi-stakeholder, government-led initiative focused on their mining industry, looking for opportunities to establish best practices in social and environmental responsibility. They spent three years looking around the world for what to adopt. Ultimately, after spending quite a bit of time with us, they chose Towards Sustainable Mining.

With the announcement of Finland last year, that led to more interest as well. People said, "Oh, it's not just Canada? What is this all about?''

In March, at the Prospectors & Developers Association of Canada convention, my colleague Ben Chalmers, who helps lead this program for us, was invited to present to an Argentinean delegation. Marcelo Álvarez — who works for Goldcorp and is the head of Goldcorp in Argentina and the president of the chamber of mines — was at that meeting. He was immediately won over. This was after the first cyanide spill. He immediately thought this would be really helpful. We remained in contact, but it was really after the second spill that he basically said that they can't wait any longer and phone calls started flying between Goldcorp, Barrick and the other companies in the region.

Fortunately, three Canadian-owned companies that are members of ours — Goldcorp, Barrick and Pan American Silver — are active in Argentina, so they were quick to jump on board. Other members of ours that don't have a Canadian headquarters, like Glencore, are active in Argentina but already know the program from the Canadian experience, so they felt comfortable with it.

It ended up being a very easy decision to make. Because there is already knowledge of how it works, they knew this was not just a light switch. That this was going to take investment; this was going to take a dedicated person at their association to support the membership, and new resources. They knew that going in and have committed to it.

Senator Cordy: So out of something not so good came something —

Mr. Gratton: Yes, never waste a crisis. I forget who said that first, but I don't know how many times I've used it.

Senator Cordy: Never waste a crisis; I've heard that before.

Your news release talks about it being a vehicle to drive environmental and social performance in its mining sector, meaning Argentina. We talk, in Canada, a lot about corporate social responsibility. When you have mining companies in Argentina, one will assume, with the passing of the TSM or the Towards Sustainable Mining initiative, that Argentina will take responsibility. What happens in other countries where Canadian mining companies go in and make investments? Who challenges the corporate social responsibility? Is it the country in which the mining company is located, or is it the Canadian sector or the Canadian Mining Association?

Mr. Gratton: I'll try to answer this by describing the two ways we have proceeded to implement Towards Sustainable Mining abroad. The first way is the example we've given, which I think is the best way, where the chamber itself, in country, adopts it and implements it. When I say that's the best way, it's because there's ownership, then, in country. Also, it broadens the reach beyond the Canadian companies to the entire sector. There's AngloGold Ashanti, a large South African multinational, that is active in Argentina, and they are going to implement this as well. They've never been a member of ours, so this is new for them, but they've embraced it.

Another feature of Towards Sustainable Mining — and I think it's a very important one — is that we have a national advisory panel that includes representatives here in Canada from all three indigenous groups, the environmental community, organized labour, local mining community representatives, people from communities where mines operate. We have someone from the church, from the faith-based community. We have someone from the financial investment community. They self-select. We don't go out and handpick people we like, just for the record. They self-select, and they challenge us. They keep us honest, and they keep us in tune with changing societal values and expectations. It's a really important function. When you implement it in a country like Argentina, they are going to do the same thing. So it makes the program more relevant.

The other way, which before Finland and Argentina was the chosen path for some, is to implement TSM at all of their international operations. It's mandatory in Canada but not abroad. Some of our companies chose to do that. Agnico Eagle implements Towards Sustainable Mining at the site level in Mexico. What that means is that they implement the standards, they report, they independently verify their results, but they're reported in Canada to Canadians, not in Mexico to Mexicans. In my mind, it's good. They're implementing the standards, and we can see it. But it's not as good because they're not being directly accountable to the citizens of the country where they're operating. It's good for us, but it's not as good for the Mexicans.

There are hundreds of companies in Mexico. Agnico would have an uphill battle trying to persuade the entire Mexican industry to adopt Towards Sustainable Mining. In situations like that, it really has to be a case-by-case basis.

We're hopeful — and this is why Argentina is so significant, given the significance of Latin America to Canadian mining — that this could be a bit of a watershed moment for us, and we might start to see the take-up in other countries. There are others that we continue to engage with, including on another continent. We've also been talking to the Botswana Chamber of Mines for a few years now. The next time I come to see you, I might be able to say four countries, four continents. I like how that rolls off the tongue. So that's sort of how it's been growing, slowly but surely.

Senator Ngo: I would just like to follow up the questions of Senator Oh. How would you describe the future economic prospects of the Argentinean mining sector for new and future Canadian investment?

Mr. Gratton: I think that, if they continue on the path they've started, it could be very promising. I studied Latin American politics when I was younger. I'm not a mining engineer. I'm more like all of you, I think. Argentina has had a very volatile political history. I remember reading early on in university about how Canada and Argentina were at the same level of GDP in the early 20th century. Then they had Perón and Peronismo, and we went a very different route. We're poles apart. Argentina remains an incredibly richly endowed country, a highly educated country with tremendous potential, but they've had a very tumultuous political history that I think has held them back.

The new government seems to have a certain level of maturity in its approach — I don't know how else to describe it — that, if maintained, I think can potentially usher in a very promising future for the country. We've seen it happen in Chile. We've seen Chile emerge from a horrible dictatorship to become a very stable democracy that is now a member of the OECD and is developing its resources, not without challenges — we have challenges here — but in quite a successful manner. There's no reason Argentina couldn't follow suit.

Senator Ngo: Would you say the same about other sectors as well?

Mr. Gratton: I would think so, yes. If they're successful in reining in inflation, providing clear rules, not interfering with those rules, then I think absolutely. I think they could be quite successful. You can look at the 1990s as evidence of what happens when you start to put in place a framework and you respect that framework. If they do the same, then I think, yes. The question will be — and I think this is the question mark in everybody's mind — will this endure? If it endures, I think they have a tremendously bright future because there's tremendous potential in Argentina.

Senator Martin: I apologize for being a little bit late. Some of my questions may have already been addressed in your presentation. It's really good to hear about an initiative that is being adopted by other countries, being implemented in a country like Argentina and, as you say, beyond, throughout the world.

My first question is in terms of your association. It says in your primer that TSM is mandatory for all of your members. You're a national association, but you also list the association of British Columbia and the Quebec Mining Association. First, can you tell me how that relationship works? Who are your members? Would it be the vast majority of the companies that are in Canada?

Mr. Gratton: Yes. We represent the vast majority of mines in the country. I think we're probably 70 per cent of production, so not everybody. There's one clear segment of the industry that's not part of MAC, the potash sector, with the exception of BHP, which is a member. They're not operating yet, but, if their mine comes online, they will be our first potash producer. But, largely, we represent all commodities and all major mines. The 30-odd per cent that we don't represent tends to be smaller companies, single mine operators, but we have a few of those too.

Tthe agreement that was concluded, first with British Columbia and then with the Quebec Mining Association two years ago, allowed us to reach further into the industry. Most of their respective members are also ours, so they were already applying it, but they have a number of other companies that are smaller that weren't. With this agreement, it's now being extended to those other companies as well. It's furthering the reach of Towards Sustainable Mining in Canada as well.

Senator Martin: Other than the TSM initiative that you developed in 2004, are there other such models that are being implemented, and how does yours compare to others?

Mr. Gratton: At the risk of sounding very biased, no, there isn't really anything comparable. There is an organization called the International Council on Mining and Metals, based in London. It includes as members the world's largest mining companies, and some of our members are members of ICMM.

They have an assurance program as well that is pretty rigorous, but the key difference between what we do and what theirs does is our assurance is at the site level. When we developed Towards Sustainable Mining, it was with a very strong belief that what really matters is what happens at the site and that the way to drive performance improvement is at the site level. Our whole program is about measuring performance, whether it's aboriginal and community engagement or biodiversity conservation, at each and every mine site or smelter and refinery.

ICMM does an assurance against a set of standards, but it's an overall corporate assurance. We didn't go that route because our members candidly said, "You can hide your bad stuff in that kind of an approach.'' Every miner will tell you some of their mines are better run than others, because they're run by people. They're run in different countries and, in certain places, things run more easily than others.

So the real way to measure performance has to be at the site level. That's the key difference between the two and why I would say that ours has a value that theirs doesn't. Besides that, though, there's really nothing else in the mining world anywhere. We're it.

Senator Martin: This looked quite comprehensive, and now it makes sense. I was looking at the page that talks about protocol leaders, but now it makes sense that if it's at the mine level, at each site you would have a protocol leader, or would you have it on a macro level?

Mr. Gratton: TSM initiative leader; is that the term?

Senator Martin: I should say that I'm asking questions on things that I don't fully understand, but as I was reading through, I thought this looked very thorough. My question was on how you would assess the success of all of this. How are you doing it and how often? How do you know? What checks and balances and what assessment tools are you using? I thought I understood it by what you described, but there's a lot here. I am curious to understand the protocol leaders and then how the assessment is done.

Mr. Gratton: In Canada, we have six broad areas that sites evaluate their performance against. We have energy and greenhouse gas management; tailings management; crisis and communications; health and safety; biodiversity conservation; and Aboriginal and community engagement.

Each of those categories has a number of different performance indicators. For instance, biodiversity conservation has three; tailings management has five. Each site, every year, will evaluate itself using the standards against each of those indicators and give itself a rating as to how they stand up against the criteria. Then, every three years, somebody independent comes in and evaluates whether the scores they gave themselves are accurate. Whatever the verifier determines is the score is what is published.

That's how the system works. There's an annual check-in. We're able to show after 12 years how performance has changed over time. We're able to show that the sites are getting better in all of these areas.

I will elaborate a little bit more. In Aboriginal and community outreach, for example, the second indicator measures how well you're engaging with communities. It's on a five-level scale: C, B, A, AA, AAA. Level A is what we consider to be good practice. At level A, you would have to demonstrate that your personnel who engages with communities are trained; that you communicate in a language that's appropriate; that you provide enough time for communities to engage with you such that you don't come in the day before and say, "We'd like a decision'' or "we'd like support'' and that you give ample time; and that you provide capacity-building support, if it's needed or asked for. If you can provide evidence that you're doing all of those things, you give yourself a level A. Then there's AA and AAA, where you're doing even more than that. Then the verifier every third year will confirm whether the score you've given yourself is accurate.

Getting a level A is not easy. When we first started in 2004, our members were reporting a lot of Bs and Cs, and they were nervous about that. They thought maybe this idea was crazy because we're telling the public and the government that we're not actually operating in accordance with what we admit is good practice.

But we found that our advisory panel and others said, "Good on you for finally being honest and for not trying to snow us, as companies do, by saying you're all terrific and not to worry and that you have best interests at heart.'' By doing it that way, the program was established very early on as credible. We didn't make it easy. There was no green-washing.

Then, over time, because of how we've designed it, companies could see what they were missing and what they needed to put in place to achieve that level A. Today, in the area of Aboriginal and community outreach, the ones who have been doing this for a long time are at AAA, to the point now that we're actually in the process of reviewing that protocol because we no longer consider what's level A to be good practice anymore. It was good practice 10 years ago, but it's now become easy. We have to challenge ourselves some more.

That's sort of how it works. Sorry. It was a long answer, but hopefully that's helpful.

Senator Martin: It was very clear, actually.

Senator Ngo: I would like to ask a supplemental question. When we were in Argentina, we visited many organizations and investments. They say Argentina needs about $250 billion investment to improve Argentine infrastructure. Besides mining, which we know already, what are other investment opportunities for Canada to jump in, besides mining right now, because we didn't see anything other than mining?

Mr. Gratton: Other than mining?

Senator Ngo: That's correct.

Mr. Gratton: I'm afraid I'm not really the best person to ask that of. One of the reasons why mining comes up is because it's a sector where Canada is sort of a global leader. Unfortunately, we often tend to be the branch plant of other sectors, whereas in mining, we're world regarded.

I would imagine that, with mining, there will certainly be opportunities for major engineering firms that are Canadian-based. SNC-Lavalin comes to mind. They work all over the world. They could very well be involved in any infrastructure developments.

Mining brings with it other expertise, legal, accounting and financial, for example, that could maybe find new opportunities there. The professional areas can certainly see opportunities that would flow indirectly from our own involvement.

The clean energy sector is growing all over the world. There's no reason why Canadians couldn't also be active there. Our mining industry is becoming an increasingly larger adopter of clean energy, as a supplement, usually, to conventional energy use, whether it be solar power or wind, so there might be opportunities there as well for Canadians.

But I'm not really the best person to ask. Maybe Perrin Beatty at the Canadian Chamber of Commerce or one of the groups like that might be able to give you a better answer.

Senator Ngo: I'm asking that question because I think the reason that Canada hesitates to step in to invest is because maybe they are afraid to take risk or maybe they are afraid of the stability of the country. What do you think?

Mr. Gratton: That's true. The mining industry that's there now went there in the 1990s when things were more stable. Then they survived a rather tumultuous period — twelve years under the previous government, the last four of which were probably the most tumultuous.

The mining industry, as well as others, is probably in a wait-and-see mode, to a degree. I guess they are at their one-year anniversary. They are doing a lot of the right things, saying a lot of the right things, but they have a minority in the congress. It's not that surprising that companies would be approaching it carefully but, with each passing day, people get more confident and you can expect to see that quite likely accelerate.

Our industry is just emerging now from a downturn, so there hasn't been a lot of money for our sector to invest with. That's changing now, starting with the gold sector but also into other commodities now, so we could start to see that accelerate — I hope here in Canada also, I might add. I would like to see some of our investments stay home.

The Deputy Chair: Thank you for your presentation and for answering the many questions today. We appreciate you being here on behalf of the Mining Association of Canada.

Colleagues, this meeting is adjourned.

(The committee adjourned.)